172 | A Year of Jubilee (Part Two) with Cameron and Lyssah Fry

Welcome to episode #172, which is a continuation of my conversation with Cameron and Lyssah Fry.  If you missed last week’s episode, you’ll want to go back and listen to hear the story of their tiny and feisty daughter, Jubilee … born at 25 weeks, 6 days, and weighing just 18 ounces … who repeatedly astounded medical staff with her tenacity and fighting spirit. Her testimony, throughout her 393 days in the NICU, was “Watch What God Will Do”, and her earthly life, though short by some standards, continues to have a profound impact. Today, we discuss the marriage relationship after loss, the “before and after” of child loss, the beauty of the gospel, and following Jesus through pain and sorrow. We pick up our conversation right where we left off last week.

Link to Part One of my conversation with the Frys:   https://www.buzzsprout.com/1230350/13744468

Connect with Cameron and Lyssah:

Website:  https://hisgirlfryday.com/
Instagram:  https://www.instagram.com/hisgirlfryday/
Twitter:  https://twitter.com/HisGirlFryday
Facebook:  https://www.facebook.com/hisgirlfryday/

** IMPORTANT** - All views expressed by guests on this podcast are theirs alone, and may not represent the Statement of Faith and Statement of Beliefs of the While We're Waiting ministry.

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Transcript

Jill
I wanted to ask a question. How have the two of you kind of managed your grief together as husband and wife? A lot of times there's differences in the way we grieve as spouses. How have you all dealt with that?

Cameron
I would say that we've handled there's similarities and there's differences. We both are communicators, we're internal processors. I think you almost have to look at Juju's life in two separate halves. I think that for me, I was a bit more quiet in the beginning, more subdued, and I was just kind of taking the punches as they came, or so I felt. And unless you could correct me if I'm wrong, I believe that you were doing that in your own way. Thankfully, there were times we were strategic at some sometimes it felt like it was random where we were able to be honest with how we were feeling. But I think most days though, if I had to number them out, I think we were just still together. We were just silent. We learned to be okay with the silence. And sometimes it's just learning to communicate without the words and just simply being there in God's ministry of availability, using words if necessary. I think that we looked at simply being with Juju in the NICU as our date night even just like this is a chance. We joked about that. We don't have date nights anymore. Our date nights are like we go to NICU and I know back up to but meaningful conversation we knew like, okay, some of the most meaningful moments are happening. We don't have to effort in trying to make this a special connection. God is here. I'm a writer, as you probably have noted. And so I probably wrote once or twice a month to kind of get some of my emotions out. And I do think this is a good exercise for people to just set time aside and let yourself vent out into the void and invite God into that mist, of course, but just vent into the void and see what comes out and you'll be surprised. So there is a book in the work with Jubilee that I'm putting together and half of that's going to be things that I wrote during her time. And so I think it's wise to have an outlet that's just between you and God. But there's also, of course, the other side of we need to be there for each other. And it was hard again, that first half was hard because we didn't have our safe place of home to go to. We had to let that be our car. We had to let that be over the phone when we're ships passing in the night. And just especially NICU. It's one of the reasons why NICU became that extension of home. And in the second half, I think it was more like, okay, you got used to a rhythm, so you start to feel a little bit more empowered. And as kind of Juju went, you went and we went too, kind of. Now you're secure in this. Buckle up, we already know it's bumpy. We just kept the conversation going. But I think for me, the biggest AHA moment through our relationship and how we communicated with each other is just learning to be okay in the stillness.

Lyssah
And I think that we were given what I view as a gift in that we knew for a long time that we might lose her. It wasn't one of those like, my heart goes out to any parent who just wakes up one morning or gets a call. And don't be wrong, we did get that call. You know what I mean? She'd coded twice already and they were trying to actively resuscitate her when they called me in. But we were able to get there. She stabilized enough that we had time with her. But because we'd had those calls a few times and because we'd lived on this edge of a knife essentially for a year, I think we learned to communicate what needed to be communicated because we were never guaranteed tomorrow and we were always aware of that with her. We both also had our roles that we stepped into in that. And because of that, I think that allowed us, during our grieving period, to almost have that kind of same like, it's like we don't have like, he can see if I'm having a hard day, and he somehow rallies, and the same thing. If he's having a hard day, he doesn't have to say it. I see it, and without even trying, it triggers that response of, okay, no, I have to rally. And I've been really grateful that we've never had a bad day on the.same day.

Cameron
It's crazy how that works.

Jill 
Yeah. That is a common experience that I hear all the time, and that was true for Brad and I as well, that we hardly ever both had a terrible day at the same time. One of us was up when the other one was down, and vice versa. And that's a common experience, and I really think that's a gift from God.

Lyssah
It really is. And I think it gives us the opportunity because, again, because we had that space of learning to say what we needed to say. He can look at me and he says, Are you okay? And I'm like, I just really missed Juju today. And he knows, and he's like, I miss her too. That's part of it. I think there's been this almost like a call and response. Even if what we're feeling is at different times, it's validated in the other person, even if they're not actively where you are in that moment. I think that's been a big thing. It's like I've never felt like he was judging me because I was having a hard day. And I hope you've never felt like I was judging you if you were having a hard day and we've had moments of angry outbursts or things happen, but we've been quick to look at each other and be like, I'm really sorry. I'm very emotional today, and that's not an excuse. And being able to receive that from one another as well, I think this whole thing has really just taught us a lot of grace, and I think that's allowed us to grieve by extending that grace to each other, to our kids. You know what? It's just, I think, giving each other space and recognizing we're similar, but we're very different people. Cameron is a thinker and a processor. Like, let me … let me talk it out. I'm a very in the moment person, and so for, like, when I feel things, I have to feel them now for him. He's able to be like, I will come back to you, and I will feel you in a minute.

Cameron
Yes. So true.

Lyssah
And so I think because of that, it's allowed us to give each other space. For that I've learned, okay, if I'm in a moment and he's not in a place for a moment, I'm going to go have my moment, and then we can circle back and try not to take I really think giving each other again, Grace, and trying not to take things overly personal. And I'm just grateful because we've met other people who didn't have that same kind of connection. And I really feel like I think it boils down to expectations, maybe. And we expect grief to look like it does for us. But because we'd already walked through this year of kind of like living grief and we'd already kind of realized we processed different, I think that allowed us to walk into grief, grief and keep those same roles, keep that same support and rhythm, maybe.

Cameron
Yeah, I felt like we were really walking through some hell there for a bit. It's just like, are we going to loosen our grasp or we're going to hold on tighter? It's just, like, goes back to that learning to cope at the end of your rope metaphor. It's like, tie a knot, hold on, and be still. So it almost like there was an effortlessness into the togetherness, so to speak. There were times where you could sense the difference in depths. I'm sure you and Brad felt that too. It's like you were at a lower depth, I think probably more often than not less. You were at a lower depth. I felt like I was looking down, almost like I can't reach you, and, like, God's, like, it's okay. You can't just be like, just talk. Let me be the one to save, okay? Let me be the one to minister to her depth. And so, yeah, it's like being okay at being at different depths was another side effect through the journey. It's okay that I might be a bit more at the 20,000 foot level and Lyssah's doing the recon. At the surface, I think it actually worked out well in terms of ministering life to our kids through Juju’s life.

Jill
Yes. Well, like, you guys, we had that year to kind of pre-grieve. And I do think that made a difference, too, with us, because we got to kind of figure out some of those things before Hannah went to heaven, and we're able to carry that over with our relationship because, like you guys, we're very different in the way we process things. Brad is more the verbal processor, and I'm the more internal processor, but we were able to give each other grace with that. And because of that, we didn't really ever struggle in our relationship, although certainly there were times that we had to talk things out, but God gave us the grace to do that. And like you said, I think he equipped us gradually for that point because of the journey that we walked leading up to her homegoing. 

So I believe that all of us that have lost a child have this very sharp dividing line in our lives. There's the before and the after. So talk about the before. Cameron and Lyssah and the after. Cameron and Lyssah. How have you changed?

Cameron
I would say for starters, as cliche as it sounds, really receiving each day as a gift, we're less prone to take things for granted. I'll say it that way. Juju's story is a testimony as an asset in our life. And I tell people her story. It's like the ultimate thumbnail. Any perseverance or endurance I show in this life. So I feel like there's a bit more of I got this mojo in my spiritual bloodstream, if that makes sense. There's not as much that God in me, near me, with me, et cetera. I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. There is that. On the flip side, and I kind of alluded to this earlier, but on the downside of things, I just feel like the get up to feelings of happiness or just even receiving the joy of the, Lord is your strength. I just feel like momentous occasions, things that normally would have brought you more excitement, everything just feels a bit more dull or capped. And we felt that certainly each holiday that's happened since, it's just like it just used to feel like the traditions of the family, you look forward to this and now it's not as much of a look ahead. So it's an odd dichotomy, really, where it's like you feel stronger internally, you feel okay. I don't have to take as many steps to making the courageous and bold decision, but at the same time, what I'd give to just feel that extra pep in my step and you wonder, will that ever come back? I don't know. But I just think again, how I steer out of that is okay. Where can I find the gratitude and thanksgiving? And my mission sometimes is as simple as declaring the attributes of God to get me into a good place. It's like it's not about life. It's not about my satisfaction and  contentment anyway. But I think it's just, okay, where are those codependencies? Let me take them captive. And it really kind of compels you to walk upon the foundation of your faith and what you believe in.

Lyssah
And I think for me, I grew up having a huge, pretty unshakable faith. I went on mission trips. I was the kid who loved Jesus from an early age, did internships, dedicated. My life has followed. When he said go, I was like, cool, I'm there. And that had gone into my adulthood. You know what I mean? I feel like for me, one of the biggest changes was a major testing, a major fire, because I'd always seen him come through and having to come face to face with the sometimes him coming through does not look like I thought it would look. And I'm not sure if I would call it an optimistic pragmatist or like a pragmatic optimist. I'm pretty logical and anchored. But I've always been like, look on the bright side, it'll work out. It'll all work out. And I've definitely over the last year gone through a season of it's been hard. I was always the person if someone's sick let me pray for them, I'm going to pray. And now it's been hard with my kids and Mom, I have a tummy ache. Will you pray for me? And it's like, yeah, and I want to jump into the hole. But you know what? Sometimes maybe it's not. I don't know. There's been so much that I realized how much Western theology had gotten into my beliefs that I didn't realize. And so in a way, again, I'm super grateful because I want to be in that place where I know, hey, whether he does or he doesn't, he's still sovereign. And just because he doesn't doesn't mean that I did something wrong, and it doesn't mean that it's not  … His will doesn't always look like we think it is. There's a bigger picture. And so I feel like I've gone through a lot of brokenness over this past year. In the after Juju time frame, I've gone through a lot of anger. I was always like, whatever God gives me, I'll receive it and I'll take it. And again, once those things are put to the test and you stand on the other end of your prayer here we go. Okay. Actually, I got to put feet to that. I've dealt with a lot more anger. I've always been a very pretty relaxed person and dealt with a lot of anger this year. Anger at God, anger at the situation, anger at myself, anger at family members, and just being like family members. I think I've had to confront where Cameron has seen a lot of the good rise up to the top in him. I've seen a lot of the dross coming to the top for me to be skimmed off, and I'm grateful for it because you can't unknow once you know. And it's shown me how many people out there are walking with burdens that I had no idea were a thing. And I feel like it's also birthed in me a true form of compassion. Not just a compassion in theory, but a compassion in truth.

Cameron
The sensitivity to others people's needs certainly has gone up for both. Just the Lord brought me the tent pegs of empathy and just getting outside of beyond ourselves. I mean, we saw a lot of hurting hearts, a lot of grieving hearts in the NICU. And it's actually one of the positive takeaways, is, like, we got to see what hopelessness looks like to another degree, and it inspires you. Like, I want to be part of God's hope story to other people. So there's that prick of the soul where it's like, man, I've been so selfish, and I really want to not be the same. I feel like I'm just starting to get my groove into new levels of maturity, how it manifests in selflessness, because I was doing some things, but it was a very more compartmentalized life for me. Pre Juju and I think that's just like, it's not just courage and boldness in general or more faith in general. It's wanting to minister to people who are going through their depths, and they don't scare me. We're not intimidated by those depths, whereas a lot of people are. There are people who are afraid to come up to you and be like, hey, how are you doing? Checking in on you. We've seen that this year. And the temptation for offense has been there for both of us, and we know we need those offenses, as the Word says. But hey, we've been there. It's like we've gone through some crazy crap, and even if God was using it for his glory. So, yeah, that's kind of one of the challenges. It's like we're not there yet, but we feel a piece internally that we're on our way to being able to minister to those depths. And it's one of the reasons why it's like, yeah, God had purpose to this, for sure.

Lyssah
Yeah. And finding the beauty and brokenness and being okay with it.

Cameron
The Japanese pottery.

Lyssah
Yeah. - Kitsugi

Jill
So much of what you're saying is the same thing that I experienced, especially going through the cancer journey with Hannah and then the time following what you said about we have that Western theology. It's not really the prosperity gospel, but it's this Western theology that everything is going to work out okay and God's going to answer my prayers the way I am praying. And yeah, some of that needs to be stripped away because like you said, the will of God doesn't always look like what we think it should. And the sovereignty of God is something that we have to come to terms with and realize that we are probably not going to understand and have to be okay with that and live with that.

Cameron
Right.

Lyssah
And I think that's the beauty of the gospel. The beauty of the gospel is God can redeem whatever the brokenness is exactly. And that redemption may not look like we want it to look, but in the end, he knows what it is that we need. I never would have wanted another kid, never, ever, because I wouldn't have wanted to walk through that again. But I'm so grateful that he saw fit to give that to us and gave us the strength to walk it out. And that's the thing that I think that's what we miss sometimes in our Western belief system is that his burden is easy and his yoke is light, because it's not about the expectation. It's about he knows us in our very most broken place, and he loves us in that very broken place, and he walks and he carries us. That's why it's easy. We're not carrying the burden. He's carrying us and the burden sorry, I'll get rambly.

Jill
I love your rambling. It's great. Yeah. What a great conversation. 

I know that you guys have an interest in Bivocational ministry. From what I've been able to kind of pick up … talk about what that is and why it's so important. I know this is a little bit of a shift in our conversation, but I was just curious how you guys got involved with that and what it is exactly that you do.

Cameron
So His Girl Fryday is the current name for this bivocational endeavor. Our tagline is Building a Bridge for the Bivocational. It started with a dream we had almost ten years ago. As crazy as it sounds, we were youth pastors at the time and working full time, and we both were working full time jobs and we just had a coming together, the heart of wanting to build a resource for people who were pastoral leaders in ministry. But they had that tent making job that they had those day commitments and it was work life balance that we were trying to inspire hope to. It started out specifically as a resource for those who were in church leadership and had that extra job, but we kind of learned to kind of expand what it meant to be bivocational, and we're now trying to speak to a very wide audience where anyone can identify.

Cameron
It's not a difference between your secular life and your sacred life. There's a coming together we were breaking yeah, a mission field. You can pastor people just as much in your job as you can within the walls of the church. And it's not about this is the more sacred calling because you have a five fold ministry calling, but whatever you've been given by the Lord to do, whatever you've been given to set your hand to, that is your ministry. And we want to resource people with that. We want to encourage them in that because it can be like it used to be so frustrating. Like we'd be the last to find out about stuff because we couldn't make staff meeting during the week because we were at our jobs and then we'd be like two or three weeks late on stuff by the time an email came out. And then we're like, oh, okay. It can get really discouraging where you just feel very alone and isolated rather than it being a this is a beautiful thing. You get to experience the best of both worlds. You get to have the fellowship that comes from faith and you get to have the ministry that comes from a mission field. And it's a beautiful thing to be in even as it's stressful and a lot. And so I think that was kind of our heart was to really just equip people, regardless of where they are, with the tools they need to embrace what God's given them and walk it out.

Lyssah
Finding the balance between sacred and secular is a big one, but also helping marketplace ministers, as we like to call them, find their unique spiritual gift mix. I like to think of the sonic gift combination as a word picture for this. There's between 20 and 30 spiritual gifts in the New Testament that Paul talks about, and we each have a specific set in a specific order, and that's by design. And a lot of people don't know, number one, what those are. It's not just fivefold. It's also we can get into gifts, hospitality and exhortation, all those what some might think secondary gifts, but helping people translate them to the service of their jobs. For me, I'm a pastor, teacher, prophet, and I've worked in accounting and sales industries, currently work for a nonprofit accounting firm. And people like it's not talked about enough, I don't feel like, how to be a pastor in political environments, in the educational realm and medical environments. We've compartmentalized it so much. So we just had this heart about ten years ago to just start riding with arrows on our backside and just we're going to break down these walls and help awaken people to how this looks within their vocational calling.

Jill
Yeah, well, and I love that. My husband worked as a school administrator for 31 years before he retired, and it was always his mission field. I mean, that was his job, but he always served and thought of it as his mission field, public school administration. And he served well. So bivocational even there to me, because his desire was always to show the love of Jesus to every student, every teacher, everybody that he Camerone encountered that he Camerone into contact with in the school system. So if people want to learn more, I know you've got the His Girl Friday Facebook page, right? And a website.

Cameron
His Girl Fryday with a Y. Fry. D-A-Y. So I don't think the other versions is like the movie. It's not going to take you anywhere. But yeah, we're on Instagram. We're on YouTube. Spotify. We have our own podcast. The project had to be put on hold for a little bit for reasons understand, and right now how we use that. I post a lot of my Juby reflections on that website, Helping Marketplace. So I was like, how do you want to merge this together? I was like, well, we can empower the Marketplace ministers in the world to deal with those in their midst who are going through this, using your story as an example. So there's still a vocational element in Juby's story that is so I love that Brad did that because we work with students and yeah, it's like, I am not just a pastor over here. I'm a pastor here too, it’s  important.

Jill
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I want to just kind of point people to your social media links and things like that. So I'll put links down in the show notes because you do talk about your story and your grief and how God has used that in your life and in your ministry. So I want people to be able to find that. So I'll include all of those links in the show notes. So one more question I always like to ask before we close, and that is has music been an important part of your journey and if so, what is on your playlist?

Cameron
Well, if people are on Spotify … I was going to say when Juby was … I mean, you have to answer that. Talk about pre Juby, post Juby. And then during obviously, there's the Jubilee, Maverick City song that became iconic very quickly. Maverick City. There's other songs, I think, by Maverick City that on our playlist, too.

Lyssah
I would say since we've lost Juju, some of the songs that have really kind of ministered to my heart. I guess you could say The Same God by Elevation Worship, Anxious Heart by Jeremy Camp, Truth I'm Standing On By Leanna Crawford, My God Is Still the Same by Sanctus Real, Another in the Fire by Hillsong, Whatever You're Doing by Sanctus Real, Stars by Skillet, Even If …  that's been a big one for me by Mercy Me, The Battle Belongs by Phil Wickham. Broken Hallelujah by the Afters. That has been a huge one. Yeah, there's been so many. And then I would say in this newer season, I know I've just given like a thousand, but Joy is Coming by Todd Galberth. I don't know if I'm saying that right. Firm Foundation by Maverick City Praise featuring Brandon Lake has been a big one lately, like just really remembering that that is who he is and fear is not my future because, again, it's really easy when you've walked through the dark to feel like the dark is still with you. So I feel like I went through a time where I needed to know everything was valid, and now I'm entering that season where I need to know that a little light can illuminate the path. But, yeah, for me, music has been really big. I had a playlist that played all the time in Juju's room and I still can't listen to most of those songs right now.

Cameron
I'm glad you mentioned that, though, because we did have a Juju playlist. Yeah,your playlist where those songs were, so I think that really contributed to what was happening in the supernatural.

Lyssah
Yeah, I think for every season there's been a few songs, but seriously Broken Hallelujah by the Afters, I think that was one of the first songs that really just broke me because it literally talks about all I have is a broken hallelujah. All I have I have nothing left to give you, God. Nothing left.

Cameron
I'll add one more to that extensive list. It's not grief specific, but Good and Loved by Travis Green and Stephanie Gretzinger I think, has Bethel roots there.

Jill
Yeah.

Cameron
Never short of good music out there. We have K-Love on in our cars. Probably number one station, right?

Jill
Yeah, we do too. All right, well, you guys gave us a great list of a bunch of songs we can look up and add to our playlist. So thank you for that. Is there anything else you'd like to share before we wrap up?

Cameron
Just one thing, sort of prophetic stirring. Just because I felt it during the second half of Juju's life, and once I kind of captured it and was able to put words to it, it really inspired me. So if there's any parent out there who is maybe going through this where they have a sick child and perhaps they're in that pre-bereavement place, pre-grief place, I know we want to identify with the woman with the bleeding problem, and we feel know we make our objective. I just got to touch Jesus. I got to get a piece of his robe. And I felt like I was that person, that character in the Bible during those last few months. And there was a tendency to be discouraged because I'm like, Man, I feel like I can't keep pace with Jesus. I don't understand. I'm trying to get to Him, and sometimes I'd be like, Jesus, will you just slow down for us? Like, we're trying to get to you. And so there was that internal frustration, and I remember actually having a dream about, like, the climax of this whole thing came around the time that Juju passed away, and I finally got to Jesus. He turns around, it's like, you were never supposed to touch my robe. You weren't ever supposed to touch it. I know you thought that that was sort of the objective here. No. Your call, your mission was to follow me. Well done. You did that. Look behind you and see how many more people are following me because of what you enlisted, because you're faithful to the call and you're obedient, and you learned to present to me. Wasn't perfect, but I just want to encourage some people out there who feel like they're giving it their all. They're running after Jesus. They're following Him in their weakness, and they feel like they can't reach Him. That's okay. I thought there was something wrong with me that I couldn't get to Him, but you can just take that pressure and punt it away. It doesn't have to be a part of your belief system. It's just sometimes that's going to be what we're called to. It's very simple. Just follow me. Drop what you're doing, come follow me, and watch what I will do. So I just wanted to share that. And also, the other thing is, because Lyss didn't really get a chance to describe it in full detail, but if there is an icon to Juju's life, it's the butterfly. We used to think that it was kind of a cheesy thing, but it became a theme as part of, like, if I'm we talked about her banner during her life, and we would put the butterfly in any room that she was in, because we found out during the process somehow that that actually means watching and see what God will do. There's a tie into that phrase with the image of a butterfly. So one of the things we did earlier this year was we planted a butterfly bush in front of our home and we're watching it grow. We felt like that actually just wasn't some sentimental decision, but we felt called to do that. We're not avid gardeners. We did that. And so it's just for those who maybe are looking for something to do, who've lost, trying to maybe, how do I keep the memory alive? I think it's worth asking, what are some of the visual prompts? Like, when I see it, I'm just going to naturally look up and I'm going to fix my eyes on the prize. And for me, and endless as well, we planted a butterfly bush and now it's grown. And we feel like as that bush grows, so does our faith, so does our hope. There's just a natural tie into our belief system. And it's great to see extra life there. That's what we want to see. We want to see new lives, find the Lord in and through the story. So that's another encouragement to parents out there is press in and ask specifically, what are some of the things if I've lost someone dear to me, how do you want me, Lord, to remember them? And how do you want me to put people in the place of in the position of seeing you as well? So people who come in our house now, they see the butterfly bush. They see all the butterflies on it. They see the butterfly icon on the vinyl on our car. They see in a few places in our home, a picture frame with Juju in it and there's butterflies on it. They quickly realize, like, this is a watch and see what God will do story.

Jill
Love that. Such great practical advice. And I love the word picture of just following Jesus. I'm going to have to ponder that one a little bit, but I love it. So thank you so much. You've just shared so many things in our conversation over the last couple of weeks that have just really just meant a lot to me and have made me think and I think will be just a great encouragement for our listeners as well. So thank you so much.

Cameron
Our pleasure. Lyss had to sign off, but I'm still here, so on behalf of both of us, just thank you for making the time to have us on. Tonight means a lot to us.

Jill Sullivan
Absolutely. It's my pleasure.